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STUDENT OF LIFE

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Thomas Jefferson supported rewriting the Constitution every 19 years, equated not doing so to being 'enslaved to the prior generation' - what do you think about that ?

Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:28 AM EST
us-news, congress, government, constitution, founding-fathers, jefferson, repeal
By Student of Life
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Many of us here on Newsvine (myself included) are fond of quoting 'the founding fathers' as a method of either proving our point or disproving another.

When people think of Thomas Jefferson's most famous words, they think of his more prominent quotes -

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.

Conquest is not in our principles. It is inconsistent with our government.

I like the dreams of the future better than the history of the past

Never put off till tomorrow what you can do today

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Among dozens of others that have been utilized on this forum. (I left out the anti-religious quotes he's made in an effort to avoid a flame war...the primary topic will likely spark enough controversy.)

You can find more here.

However, he also had some very poignant quotable comments from his letters, and that is the point of his article. In particular -

Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of nineteen years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right. It may be said, that the succeeding generation exercising, in fact, the power of repeal, this leaves them as free as if the constitution or law had been expressly limited to nineteen years only. In the first place, this objection admits the right, in proposing an equivalent. But the power of repeal is not an equivalent. It might be, indeed, if every form of government were so perfectly contrived, that the will of the majority could always be obtained, fairly and without impediment. But this is true of no form. The people cannot assemble themselves; their representation is unequal and vicious. Various checks are opposed to every legislative proposition. Factions get possession of the public councils, bribery corrupts them, personal interests lead them astray from the general interests of their constituents; and other impediments arise, so as to prove to every practical man, that a law of limited duration is much more manageable than one which needs a repeal." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:459, Papers 15:396

The part I'd like to focus on is the bolded portion.

"Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of nineteen years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right."

What this seems like he's saying is that he as one of the founders of our country and arguably one of the most important forces in designing our system of laws is that he never intended for these laws to outlive him or his collegues.

After first reading of this quote, I thought perhaps he misspoke, or perhaps I didn't understand his meaning. So I did some more research to see if this was an isolated incident. What I came up with was kind of surprising.

Let us provide in our constitution for its revision at stated periods. What these periods should be nature herself indicates. By the European tables of mortality, of the adults living at any one moment of time, a majority will be dead in about nineteen years. At the end of that period, then, a new majority is come into place; or, in other words, a new generation. Each generation is as independent as the one preceding, as that was of all which had gone before. It has then, like them, a right to choose for itself the form of government it believes most promotive of its own happiness; consequently, to accommodate to the circumstances in which it finds itself that received from its predecessors; and it is for the peace and good of mankind that a solemn opportunity of doing this every nineteen or twenty years should be provided by the constitution, so that it may be handed on with periodical repairs from generation to generation to the end of time, if anything human can so long endure." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. ME 15:42

Forty years [after a] Constitution... was formed,... two-thirds of the adults then living are... dead. Have, then, the remaining third, even if they had the wish, the right to hold in obedience to their will and to laws heretofore made by them, the other two-thirds who with themselves compose the present mass of adults? If they have not, who has? The dead? But the dead have no rights. They are nothing, and nothing can not own something. Where there is no substance, there can be no accident [i.e., attribute]." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. (*) ME 15:42

The idea that institutions established for the use of the nation cannot be touched nor modified even to make them answer their end because of rights gratuitously supposed in those employed to manage them in trust for the public, may perhaps be a salutary provision against the abuses of a monarch but is most absurd against the nation itself. Yet our lawyers and priests generally inculcate this doctrine and suppose that preceding generations held the earth more freely than we do, had a right to impose laws on us unalterable by ourselves, and that we in like manner can make laws and impose burdens on future generations which they will have no right to alter; in fine, that the earth belongs to the dead and not the living." --Thomas Jefferson to William Plumer, 1816. ME 15:46

A generation may bind itself as long as its majority continues in life; when that has disappeared, another majority is in place, holds all the rights and powers their predecessors once held and may change their laws and institutions to suit themselves. Nothing then is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:4

The generations of men may be considered as bodies or corporations. Each generation has the usufruct of the earth during the period of its continuance. When it ceases to exist, the usufruct passes on to the succeeding generation free and unencumbered and so on successively from one generation to another forever. We may consider each generation as a distinct nation, with a right, by the will of its majority, to bind themselves, but none to bind the succeeding generation, more than the inhabitants of another country." --Thomas Jefferson to John Wayles Eppes, 1813. ME 13:270

Now it's fairly obvious given these writings that this idea was not just a passing fancy of Jefferson. He thoroughly believed this idea. The Constitution and laws that are written by one Generation should expire with the end of that generation.

His argument is to say the least persuasive - by allowing the previous generation to dictate how we live our lives, we are in essence enslaving ourselves to that generation. Slavery is the antithesis to what America is. I'm sure your mileage on this perception may vary, but that's mine.

But where does 'adhering to traditions' become 'enslaved to the previous generation?'

What do YOU think ?

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Student of Life

COH applies to all -

Oh yeah one more thing - any comment regarding Jefferson being a slave owner will be deleted immediately. This IS your warning. It's blatantly off-topic, and will not be tolerated.

Derail your own articles, leave mine alone.

  • 5 votes
Reply#1 - Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:31 AM EST
Student of Life

Now that little unpleasant sidebar is out of the way, I'd like to know what you think about this.

Do you think he addressed this in the 1st Constituional Convention, and it was rejected ? Do you think it's from this that we arrived at the current 2/3s Amendment system?

What do you think would happen if this was in effect ? Do you think it would work in today's society ?

  • 2 votes
Reply#2 - Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:34 AM EST
CaptainObviousSays

What do you think would happen if this was in effect ?

America would not have lasted as long as it has...
and by now would have been dead for around 150 yrs...

Texas would still be here though ;)

people need a constant for rule of law.

if everything gets re-worked every 19 yrs...
how could any one make long term plans?

this would be why Jeffersons idea was ignored...
there is no long term stability in that plan.

cheers
:)

  • 3 votes
#2.1 - Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:22 PM EST
darrell dusty mitchell

I myself believe in a rewriting of it ever so often if not every 19 years. Half of the original amendments are already being ingored or loopholes that put the laws out of effect..there are some thats been that way for a 150 or so years... slavery abolished , women gained right to vote and so on and so on

    #2.2 - Wed Nov 9, 2011 10:17 AM EST
    Chris-382117

    Student of Life

    We already have a "Re-write" process in place and have had one since 1787; it is the ability to amend the Constitution and it has been used 27 times so far. Any portion of the Constitution or its amendments can be altered, modified, or completely struck. Is it difficult to do? Absolutely, but that is the purpose and the reason that we have a Republican style of Government and not a pure Democracy.

    Without changes to the Constitution being so damned difficult to achieve, we would be at the mercy of Mob Rule. Would you like it if a simple majority could completely strike down the 14th Amendment? How about the 1st or 5th?

    There are laws in England that have been in place since the Magna Carter that have not been re-written and France still has laws that date back to Napoleon. While laws need to be updated when a need is identified, just changing them fro the hell of it on a schedule dictated by a calendar is not a good idea, IMO.

    • 2 votes
    #2.3 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:04 PM EST
    Reply
    Student of Life

    Personally, I think that the life expectancy is too long now for a system like that to work, but the 'what-ifs' of a such an theory are intriguing to me.

    • 1 vote
    Reply#3 - Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:39 AM EST
    Janeinthisworld

    The rewriting or even the "retooling" of the Constitution would be far too cumbersome a task every 19 years.

    • 1 vote
    Reply#4 - Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:07 AM EST
    Student of Life

    I don't really think it would be too cumbersome myself.

    Every 25 years, have a Constitutional Convention, and at that convention reassess the Constitution and whether or not the laws still express the desires of the majority of the nation.

    I'm sure most of it would stay as is, but I'm also fairly sure some if would change as well.

    • 1 vote
    #4.1 - Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:14 AM EST
    Janeinthisworld

    You're talking about the potential for throwing the whole thing out and starting over. Why not just invite a revolution? Or a tyranny. We know the "majority" doesn't always have everyone's best interests in mind. Generally the only best interests they have are their own.

    • 1 vote
    #4.2 - Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:18 AM EST
    ALiveKip

    I would gladly invite a revolution. I think it's something we should all invite, embrace, and further (unless of course you're a member of the ruling, finance-controlling elite... in which case do exactly what you are doing - fear the change).
    This should also be a sign of the times - there are entirely too many people in widely varying situations to be ruled by one antiquated set of guidelines.
    And ok - maybe not the entire Constitution, but consider the difference it would make if you were not subject to the thoughts, ideals, and morally-based laws of men who died decades, if not a century, ago.

    • 2 votes
    #4.3 - Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:36 PM EDT
    darrell dusty mitchell

    i agree most would be unchanged more than likley .... and im sure young people like me would not throw the senior citizens benefits out ....if so who would take care of your parents and grandparents...the majority of people would help them to make it easier on themselves.

    • 1 vote
    #4.4 - Wed Nov 9, 2011 10:27 AM EST
    weRdoomed

    Still thinking, but saying "oh shucks, it's too haaaaard to change things" is definitely NOT a good reason for dismissing Jefferson's suggestion....

    • 2 votes
    #4.5 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:56 AM EST
    Reply
    Therese Nelson

    I took an Oath to follow the Constitution of our country, to protect US from our enemies foreign and domestic. I think Jefferson did not comprehend the magnitude of the Document that he was talking of changing. The Fathers of our country knew well of the abuses of governments of their day, that is why they formed a government with checks and balances, not all power in one Branch, Separation of Power. I think Jefferson was not understanding what he was saying, nor of the harm of such a statement. He was proposing a willy nilly floating government with no basis in law, I think it sounds absurd.

    • 3 votes
    Reply#5 - Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:18 AM EST
    darrell dusty mitchell

    why would u think that. he wrote it or helped write it .. im sure he thought on it .... it lasted this long for the most part,but he didnt write it thinkin of the past. wrote it for the future that is still changing and 200 years from now people won't want us makin there laws..

    • 1 vote
    #5.1 - Wed Nov 9, 2011 10:34 AM EST
    Crump~

    If you're claiming Jefferson wrote the US Constitution you're mistaken. At the time the Constitution was drafted Jefferson was in Europe serving as the United States Minister to France.

    • 2 votes
    #5.2 - Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:55 PM EST
    weRdoomed

    If you're claiming Jefferson wrote the US Constitution you're mistaken.

    No one person "wrote" it.

    When speaking of the "Fathers of our country" as Therese Nelson refers to them...most people are including Jefferson in that phrase. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to refer to the "Fathers of our country" as if Jefferson is not included in that.

    • 1 vote
    #5.3 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:58 AM EST
    Crump~

    weRdoomed

    You are correct. I was actually addressing  darrell dusty mitchell's comment rather than Therese Nelson's. My apologies, I should have been more clear.

      #5.4 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:24 PM EST
      Reply
      FurryMoses

      But where does 'adhering to traditions' become 'enslaved to the previous generation?

      Your question begs too many others - you need to justify characterizing the opposing argument as "adhering to traditions". These are just weazel words.

      If you are going to sum what you think are the main points as part of a question, you really need to be factual and specific or justify those words in the body.

        Reply#6 - Mon Nov 7, 2011 7:50 PM EST
        Student of Life

        Furry, that is not my quote, but rather Thomas Jefferson's in his letter to Alexander Hamilton. He said them. I was merely posing his words to the rest of the vine so that they may be digested and debated.

        He does bring an interesting point - what is the difference if you're living under the laws of someone who lives 1000 miles away, or someone who died nearly 200 years ago ? His concept was the same - laws should belong to the living generation.

        • 2 votes
        #6.1 - Mon Nov 7, 2011 9:49 PM EST
        Reply
        mstanley2265

        I'm of the considered opinion that the Supreme Court and Congress (just not this one) has with due consideration does the 'fine' tuning of the Constitution that is needed as the decades pass. There is no need to 'rewrite' the Constitution per se. :)

        • 3 votes
        Reply#7 - Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:21 PM EST
        Crump~

        "The most important truth about the Constitution is this: it was written as a set of rules by which living people could solve their own problems, not as a 'dead hand' restricting their options." - Garrett Epps

        • 4 votes
        #7.1 - Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:45 PM EST
        Chris-382117

        Crump,

        "The most important truth about the Constitution is this: it was written as a set of rules by which living people could solve their own problems, not as a 'dead hand' restricting their options." - Garrett Epps

        I'll disagree with part of your statement here. While I do believe that the constitution "was written as a set of rules by which living people could solve their own problems", it is also a "Dead Hand" to restrict what government could, but more importantly COULD NOT do. If you read the constitution, you will see that it is a document designed for OUR PROTECTION. It places very strict limits on what the government can and cannot do.

        Keep in mind, that these men had live with the boot of tyranny on their necks. They were far too aware of what government could and would do if given the unrestricted ability to do so. That is why I believe they wrote the document that finally emerged from the congress as it did. They FEARED government and its potential excesses. They were the first Libertarians; people that believed in personal liberty and responsibility over government control.

        A political Science professor I took a class under many years ago (Early 70's) said something in a class that I have always remembered. The class that day had been about the similarities between Communist Russia, Nazi Germany, and Fascist Italy and he paraphrased Thomas Jefferson in closing. He said:

        There is no such thing as a Benevolent Dictatorship. Any Government that is big and powerful enough to give you everything that you would ever want is also big and powerful enough to take everything that you will ever have; up to and including your life.

        I am an ardent believer in George Washington's remark about government when he said:

        “Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.”

        Without the stringent controls placed on it by the Constitution, that troublesome servant can quickly become the fearful master. Would you like it if Carl Rove or Dick Chaney could make changes to the constitution?

        • 5 votes
        #7.2 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:26 PM EST
        Crump~

        Chris

        Excellent comment and voted up. Your political science professor sounds like a very wise man

        • 4 votes
        #7.3 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:00 PM EST
        Chris-382117

        My class under Dr. Argis was at the end of his career. He had lived in Europe in the 30's and watched the rise of Hitler and Mussolini and then had fought behind the lines with the OSS during WWII. He had first hand knowledge of how bad governments can become when there are no restrictions on their power. His themes were always the same;

        "Guard your freedoms with all possible vigilance lest you wake up one morning and they be gone."

        Its too bad that we could not record his lectures back then to show to today's generations.

        • 3 votes
        #7.4 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:33 PM EST
        Reply
        etva

        An interesting article, Student of Life. My first thought was, "hell no!" But that was a fear response to what our current crop of "leaders" might come up with as a substitute. In theory, I think the suggestion makes sense. Without change there is no progress, and stagnation benefits no one. As Darrell notes above, too many people have discovered too many ways to manipulate the system we have. So my vote would be yes, lets toss it and promote change (and prepare for more chaos:)

        • 3 votes
        Reply#8 - Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:05 PM EST
        joeiraqi

        I'm afraid those manipulators of current law would be many of those trying to make the changes for their particular interests.

        However, I do like the idea of not having to assume the "baggage" imposed by previous generations. For example, let their acquired national debt die with them, let their racial segregation/tensions also die, etc. . .

        • 7 votes
        #8.1 - Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:00 PM EST
        etva

        Exactly, Joe!

        • 3 votes
        #8.2 - Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:09 PM EST
        Reply
        DocPhil

        We already have the right to change the constitution, both through the amendment process and through the calling of a constitutional convention. It may seem that Jefferson's idea would be considered no more than a scheduled contitutional convention. The idea of nineteen year turnaround should be looked at in the context of the late eighteenth and the early nineteenth century when the life expectancy was in the early 40s.

        Given today's society, a convened constitutional convention every 40-50 years would be an excellent idea. That does not mean that the constitution would be scrapped. It would be reviewed and changed where necessary. Those changes would probably be subject to the same approval process as an amendment to the constitution. Thirty eight state legislatures would have to approve the revised document. It would require consensus building and move people off of hard line positions. From a governance pov, it would probably be a magnificent idea.

        • 1 vote
        Reply#9 - Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:17 PM EST
        Randilly

        I think that Jefferson in his time, did not have the hindsight experience of seeing the history of many countries in Latin America, and Asia, and other places. Where some StrongMan, or Dictator, routinely has his followers rewrite the constitution, for his own convienience or grip on power.

        In my opinion, having a Constitution, that is changable, but not too easily changed is a good thing.

        • 3 votes
        Reply#10 - Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:31 PM EST
        lou ganzo

        Is the author really as uninformed as to ask if Jefferson brought this topic up at the Constitutional Convention? Did he phone that question in from Paris? JEFFERSON WAS IN PARIS FOR THE CREATION AND RATIFICATION OF THE CONSTITUTION and he generally did not support it. He was a crazy anti-Federalist like Mason, Henry and other founders who didn't want a Federal Government or a Constitution.

        I personally think Jefferson was crazy on this and many issues. The Constitution governs for the long-term, not bending to populist desires to enslave the rich by raising taxes or creating rights like healthcare or food or housing. That is the pathway to destruction of a society and has repeated itself in Greece, Rome and today's Europe. Michael Newton wrote a terrific book about this, "The Path to Tyrrany" that chronicles this decent from liberty to tyrrany under the guise of helping the poor or extending rights. The Framers knew what they were doing and Madison and Hamilton would not have stood for a generational re-write because they understood human nature and how it relates to government.

          Reply#11 - Fri Feb 3, 2012 2:04 PM EST
          Student of Life

          No, the author isn't uniformed, but thanks for asking. As I pointed out in my quotations, these statements were made in letters to Madison, Kerchel, et al.

          Last I checked, you could write letters from Paris. I may be mistaken though.

          But his point is valid - if you are living to a previous generation's laws - you are in fact enslaved to the circumstances and effects of those laws.

          Now in reality, what happens is these archaic rules remain on the books, only they're not enforced. You can google up some of the dumb state laws on the books to see what I mean.

          And personally, I see no problem with a Constitutional convention every 20 years. If everything is as hunky dorey as it's purported to be, it'll be a non-event.

          Laws have to make sense to the generations that are shackled with them. "It's always been that way" is a pathetic excuse for complacency.

            #11.1 - Fri Feb 3, 2012 7:04 PM EST
            Reply
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